A wordsmith who tears holes in hypocrisy and mainstream hip-hop with his thoughtful stories
of the human condition, Sage Francis spits rhymes that make you think, that make you smile,
that flow beautifully over high-tempo beats.

His new album Human the Death Dance was just released on Epitaph Records May 8 and has
been charting well on Billboard’s ‘Top Independent Albums’ chart

The album is a hip-hop work of art. Mixing cutting edge beats from indie rap producers like
Alias and Reanimator and Ant, and Sage’s insightful personal and pop cultural rantings. The
16-track disc is what Sage calls a “wrap up” album of all his previous work.

I sat down with him in Cleveland, Ohio to hear some things about the indie hip-hop scene,
his abnormal Myspace page, the first rhyme he ever wrote, greedy music publishing
companies and more.

Hammer: Your Web site – www.sagefrancis.net - has tracks of yours streaming for free. Is that a good
thing for artists to do?

Sage: People can do whatever they want online. Me streaming my music just skips a step so that they
don’t go to another site and hear it. On my Myspace page there are like 20 songs there, which is
abnormal. Most people don’t get that many songs there but I made a deal with the devil.

Hammer: With Rupert Murdoch huh?

Sage: Yeah. I told him that ‘If you want the privilege of having me involved with your network you
start throwing some bones’

Hammer: I hear ya. Did you threaten to go to Facebook?

Sage: Yeah. I’m gonna two time on all of ‘em.

Hammer: I think the Internet streaming music is a great resource for underground artists, but lately
they had that crackdown on Internet radio stations. (see www.savenetradio.org)

Sage: Yeah, yeah. Publishing companies have stepped in and started to charge people (Web radio stations)
for the same type of stuff that venues are charged for, and regular radio stations. Basically any business establishment that plays published artists from ASCAP or BMI … there’s a few … they’re kinda bullies man,
they’re bullies about it. That’s some big business shit and it’s kinda unfortunate because Internet radio
was a great prospect at exposing a whole bunch of people to new music and people just were streaming
free and now they’re coming down with the hammer and it’s just gross. I have no respect for that.

I don’t care if it makes me more money, it does, I’m a member of those groups I have to be for all the
stuff that I’m doing, but I don’t respect that.

The people who care about making that money are only the publishing companies. Most artists, especially
artists on a smaller, independent level never see publishing money anyway. So… I’m wondering where
all that money disappears to. It ends up in somebody’s pocket.

Hammer: Are you seeing any royalty money yet?

Sage: I just, just recently, I started seeing some. I had to go through an agency that specializes in
retrieving publishing funds, it was a big pain in the ass and a huge process. So you actually have to
involve middle men in order to get money, then get them paid, then other people get paid, and I really
don’t think it’s about artists seeing money for their work. I think it’s about a bunch of other people implicating themselves, and getting money that probably isn’t really deserved to them and ending up with money
that other people don’t know how to retrieve.

Hammer: How do you make most of your money? Is it always live shows and selling merchandise and such?

Sage: Yep. Well, I run an independent record label called Strange Famous Records so I’ve always seen
money for what I have released, but we’re starting to put out other people’s stuff. But touring is a
great money maker, if you have the ability to put to put on a good live show and you have the stamina
to put on one after another then you should be good.

It’s just a tough market right now though. It gets tougher and tougher. It’s flooded beyond belief. Our
booking agency, the main guy, Christian at the Kork Agency just did an interview where he said he has
to book shows 6 months ahead of time now in order to get a band into a club and preparing that much
ahead of time takes professional work. So, for a band starting out that wants to do their own tour, to
book their own tour, it’s virtually impossible.

Hammer: For any type of music?

Sage: Yeah. I mean, all I know is the music we do, the indie hip hop scene, but also rock and roll,
the indie rock scene and I would say probably any genre, we’re all sharing the same clubs, so it’s
the same thing.

Hammer: You mentioned Strange Famous, how long has that been around?

Sage: Well, the beginning stages were in 1996 when I started putting out my own stuff but I didn’t start
using the name until probably 1999. We started putting out tapes, then it was burned CDs then we
started printing things up and the bigger things got the more official we became and started hiring
staff. Now we have a mail out room and we have an office and it’s starting to come together.

Hammer: You actually started rapping when you were 8 years old, what’s the first rhyme you wrote?
Or the first one you recall?

Sage: The first one I recall is actually featured on the new album in the intro. Cause I recorded it on
a tape deck, and it was like ‘I’m chillin, I’m chillin, I dealin I’m never ever illin, take that pill and you
won’t be livin’

I don’t know if most people know that those voices are actually me in different stages of my life in
the intro of my album, but that’s on there.

Hammer: What made you write that first rhyme? Why did you start writing?

Sage: I was listening to hip-hop and lovin it and I was the kinda kid, and I think most kids are like this,
when the love something they automatically want to involve themselves in it and participate and they’re
not as inhibited as adults are and they’re just ready to go. And I was ready to go. I had a tape deck
and… it was probably also cause I couldn’t get enough hip-hop.

Hammer: Who were you listening to at that time?

Sage: Run DMC, Fat Boys, L.L. Cool J and a lot of radio stuff I was able to access through 88.9 WERS
which was in Boston and they introduced me to Rakim and Spoony G and Ice Tea and the list goes on and on.

Hammer: OK. Hearing that first stuff inspired you then, but what inspires you now? What inspired you
to write this new album?

Sage: I’ve just been on the path. It’s a path and I know that doesn’t really answer the question well but
it’s like, I blazed a trail and I’m at where I’m at because I keep havin to figure out how to get further
and further and I don’t feel like stopping yet. It just keeps flowin, so I keep putting it down and people
are listening and there’s no reason to stop now, might as well keep putting out the records.

Hammer: Did you have a specific goal in mind with Human the Dead Dance?

Sage: Not really. For this record I really was just, I wanted it to be a reflective I was looking back …
the album is a culmination of all styles that had come out previously on all my other records. I think each
record before this had it’s own voice and this record incorporates a whole bunch of different voices of
mine, and it’s kind of a wrap up record. As if it was the end of the trilogy, as if it’s trying to wrap it all up
and I do think it’s the end of a certain style of record making for me. I wanna kinda abandon ship after
this and just kinda go in a whole different direction. Maybe. We’ll see what happens. But I think it’s a
good time to do that though.

Hammer: Was the process of making this record particularly grueling?

Sage: Well, I used the same engineer. I worked with a multitude of producers that I’ve worked with on
almost every other album and there were some new producers to that came in, but it’s like a mish-mash,
a mix tape style of an album. The subject matter and concepts are wide ranging and it’s a pretty
revealing record, just exposing shit that I’ve been through and what I’ve learned in my life and how
I learned it, and that’s kinda what the purpose of the album is; as far as the content goes.

Hammer: What’s more important in a song, the beats in a song or the lyrics? To you?

Sage: I’m a lyricist and that’s where my focus is, but I’ve got a high respect for the music and I’m always
on the search for the best accompaniment to the lyrics. But, without music I’ll always have the lyrics. And
that’s why I’ve done spoken word for as long as I have, cause sometimes I’m just left with no music.

Hammer: Do you consider yourself a poet?

Sage: Yeah, yeah. It’s a funny term, cause I don’t think anyone wants to walk around and say ‘I’m a poet,
I’m a poet’ … but I work with words.

Hammer: I always liked the term ‘warrior poets’ from “Braveheart.”

Sage: Well. I’m a warrior.

Hammer: So who are your favorite writers, whether in music or not?

Sage: Well, in music I’d give it up to Bob Dylan and John Lennon and for hip-hop, Buck 65 and… there’s
a few in hip-hop, but I don’t know who’s inspiring me. Writers in general, I don’t read much but I get
a big kick out of Bukowski, Hunter S. Thompson, Stephen King, those are the authors I read most.

Hammer: Do you consider yourself a hip-hop artist or a rapper, or other? Do you make hip-hop or rap?
Is there a difference? And what’s the difference between what you do and the mainstream?

Sage: I don’t concern myself with those labels. I really don’t know. Myself I’m definitely hip-hop. I
learned through hip-hop and I carry on the traditions of what I learned in hip-hop, but it’s obvious at
this point and time that the type of music I make and what’s most popular in hip-hop, we don’t sound the
same, we don’t talk about the same things, we have different approaches. But that itself is supposed to
be hip-hop. Just cause it’s not the same, people are doing their own thing, that doesn’t mean that what
I do isn’t hip-hop. But, if it ever ends up with a new title, I’ve said it time and time again, so be it.

I came up with a term that maybe it should be called, but now I can’t remember it.

Maybe it should be warrior music.

Hammer: Warrior poets?

Sage: Yeah.

Hammer: You’re a white warrior poet, is that tough in the hip-hop scene? What’s the diversity level
in hip hop these days?

Sage: I don’t know what makes it tough to be a white artist. I don’t know what makes it easy to be
a white artist. Before 2007… like 10 years ago, even 5 or 6 years ago, I can tell you what made it difficult
to be a white hip-hop artist, and that was that people were not willing to accept white rappers into their
scope. I’m sure they exist today, but now there are people who scout out rappers who are white,
and that’s freaky.

I’m not down with that. I wasn’t comfortable with people not listening to me because I’m white and
I’m not down with people listening to me because I’m white.

I don’t want it to define me. I don’t want it to include me or exclude me in anything. It’s gross.

Hammer: Don’t you think they do that in other things, like sports maybe? They scout in Cuba and in
Midwest USA because maybe different people with different backgrounds can do different things
better or have different tools for success.

Sage: There’s a lot of social reasons for that. But, I came up in an era when white people where
definitely scare, at least in the public eye. If they were around they were behind the scenes. And here
I was, jumping into battles and going into contests and it was a shock. Most people would be like, ‘oh man
a white guy is trying to do this, give me a break’ and it would influence me or inspire me to go above and
beyond what was expected of me. It helped me a lot, and I think that helps, if a black dude is trying to play hockey and he already knows people are gonna be thumbin their nose he’s gonna push extra hard to
prove himself, so … it’s like Tiger Woods on the golf course, it’s good fuel. It’s good inspiration. But right
now I have no answers. I think in 10 years from now I’ll have a much better idea of how it all worked at.

Hammer: What do you think the best music is out there today? Who should our readers be listening to?

Sage: Jolie Holland who is a singer/songwriter, she’s ghostly, she’s like a black and white photo, she has
beautiful music, beautiful voice and edgy lyrics. It’s really good stuff.

Hammer: What do you guys listen to out on tour?

Sage: Uh… I scour the radio looking for the hits, a lot of Classic Rock and Neil Young.

Hammer: No talk radio? Sports talk? Left or right wing?

Sage: Um, a little bit. I’d say 2% of the time.

Hammer: You do some politically inspired lyrics, but you don’t pay attention to that stuff on the radio?

Sage: I don’t. In fact Randi Rhodes from Air America (www.airamerica.com and www.therandirhodesshow.com) came to our show in New York and she had never seen the show before or heard the music and when
she heard the political songs she got really excited about it and has talked about the show and my music
and I’m really excited about that but I had no idea who she was and she’s this huge talk DJ. So, maybe
I should spend some more time listening to talk radio, but at the same time, no I shouldn’t. Yeah,. I don’t
think I should at all.

Hammer: OK. The new album is Human the Death Dance, where did that name come from?

Sage: Buddy Wakefield (www.buddywakefield.com), who is featured on the album, has a poem called
Human the Death Dance which we chop up and sprinkle on the album.

Hammer: If someone is reading this who is not familiar with you, what album of yours do you recommend they pick up?

Sage: Well, Personal Journals came out in 2002 and that broke me onto the scene, that’s the first official
album that came out and it’s a little off kilter and it set me apart from everyone and helped me gain my own audience and I think most people, because it’s the oldest, tend to gravitate to that one the most. But each
one that came after that I invested so much of myself into it… healthy distrust came out after that and
right now I’m kinda feeling like that was my best album. Human the Death Dance came out and I’m
overconsumed by it I’ve just been around it to much and I’m trying to get it out of my head.

Again, in 10 years ask me these same questions.

Hammer: Alright, definitely, we’ll do it again in a decade.

interview by: Mike Hammer